i recently added Semis (semi-reverse ubers) to the Uber page due to their increasing popularity in the community (and how often we get asked what they are) and in doing so, i realized, along with some others, that a LOT of the info on this page is just outright incorrect.
i'd be very happy to make these changes, but i wanted to confirm with you first. let me explain what is incorrect and what needs to be changed.
- 5-gag and 6-gag, as they are not ubers, and have never been considered so or treated as 'ubers' (unless they are one of the specialty kinds, which have their own names). maybe a very long time ago, but now, maxing tracks early is very common and the laff is just too much until you get into cash/law/boss uber territory.
- Sellbot Uber and how it's defined, this seems to have been written including 5-track and 6-tracks, would have to be changed if they are removed. Sell Uber should be, a toon with 2-4 gag tracks maxed in the range of 15-34 laff (20-39 when Sell is maxed), their focus is SBHQ.
- 4-gag's laff range, 43-48 is just blatantly wrong? maybe this under the assumption 4-trackers take DG tasks but apart from pouch/JBs, they do not touch any laff tasks. the correct range is 34-39.
- Possibly move Cash, Law, Boss, Tank, Reverse and Semi ubers all into their own seperate table for 'Specialty Ubers'. this would remove the footnote for reverses/semis, while also keeping the 'unconventional' types from being grouped in too much with the 'traditional' type. i think this is an important distinction to make, as when people just mention Ubers, they pretty much ALWAYS mean traditional/sellbot ubers. for the sake of clear information, i think this change is best.
do let me know what you think, and what your opinion are on these observations. if you're happy with these changes, i will gladly edit the page. thanks!
Hey! I remember adding a couple of stuff into the uber page a fair bit ago. And now at hindsight:
I always defined Sell Ubers as an uber with a high Sellbot suit and they can have 2 - 4 gag types. I agree with you. I need to change this.
I haven't done of maths behind 4 gag ubers. Its more "uber-ey" for 34 - 39 through.
Cash, Law and Bossbots aren't ubers imo. They shouldn't be even on the page. Law and Boss ubers have at least 100 laff... out of 137 (That's 73% of the maxium laff you can have). Cash can have a lower amount but its still over what I would consider "low".
Tanks are weird. I added it into the table but now I'm kinda at odds with it. It isn't a typical uber but at the same time it isn't really an anti-uber. I agree with you that it should be in the "unconventional" section.
for 4 track ubers, i have one and can confirm the cutoff is 34-39 laff (34 from finishing DDock +5 for sell).
i don't necessarily agree with Law/Boss ubers, though Cash ubers have been around since TTO days, so i think they should be left in for posterity's sake. there's also 'perfect ubers' (or just perfect toons) that are toons with a perfect 120 and 4 maxed suits, no boosts from anything else. it's apparently quite hard to achieve, maybe it's worth a spot in the unconventional section?
for tanks, they're definitely weird but i think they're an accepted form of unconventional uber. i think one of the most well-known tank ubers was June's own back in TTO.
it's kind of rough, because the term 'uber' has come to describe a lot of toon types that just don't necessarily fit the regular progression. reverse-ubers and semi-reverse ubers for instance, noone should consider them 'Ubers', but 'uber' is included in their name. making a new page would just be a waste, so they earn a spot on the Uber page. but then, it's a bit hard to decide what should and shouldn't be there.
but from my perspective, this is what im thinking:
Conventional Ubers: 2, 3 and 4 gag, and the Sellbot uber catchall
Wow. Didn't even know about all this. I'm not usually good with what Laff Limit starts where anyway. For now, I'm just gonna assume your right about the 4-track 34-39 range. Most of the changes proposed in your first message SOUND good.
In the third message of this thread, you say a "perfect uber" has 120 Laff Points, but the page currently says that a "perfect Uber" in TTO had 50 Laff and 6 Gag Tracks in 2004.
From what I understand, there was a glitch with the new Black Cats in 2004 that allowed them to skip ToonTask Laff Boosts, so I'm not 100% sure what a perfect Uber would actually be. Not sure if a decision has already been made about it.
Oh, just realized you probably made these changes on hour ago. Leaving my two cents anyway. Thanks for leaving me a message. :)
tl;dr Keep Cashbot Ubers somewhere on the page. Decide if a perfect Uber has 120 Laff, or 50 Laff with 6 Gag Tracks. Every other change sounds good.
hey guys! thanks for the responses so far. i'll try and explain what went on here.
with my first message, i hadn't done any research intto the history of Ubers yet. i decided to do this because the changes to the page were prompted by a little debate the community had in the TTRD over what an Uber is defined as. i went searching and i found out that the history was so interesting (as evidenced by how many people were listening to me rattle on about it) that it deserved to be preserved in the wiki page.
during that research, i learnt the whole concept of ubers before the laff skipping bug was fixed. and i discovered that pre-dec 2004, the most 'perfect' and difficult uber to achieve was a 50 laff 6-tracker. in the wiki page, i decided to describe this as an adjective rather than a noun. so a "perfect Uber of the time" isn't "a Perfect Uber" but rather "an Uber which is perfect", if that makes sense?
however, these toons that have perfect 120s through only their suits, do not actually have a real name? they are seldom done, rather like Tank ubers, but the terms i have heard have been 'Perfect 120' / 'Perfect Toon' / 'Perfect Uber', from those who run them. it's then a bit weird, because they don't fit other definitions of uber, however, by the original definitions... you could say a toon who's maxed all 4 suits without ANY other laff (particularly no fishing laff whatsoever), is pretty 'uber'.
for perfect 120s, i could go and ask those who have them and see what they think we should do? one of my good friends has one and has a lot of connections, so they may be able to give us proper insight.
as for the Black Cats in 2004 - apparently the bug existed for all toons! i've no idea when the bug started, though it was definitely before Nov 24th. i'll have to do some more research, but the MMOCF threads i found didn't seem to specify the moment Uber Noobs were brought about, since a lot of the earliest threads were basically "what is this weird toon doing in my VP", implying that perhaps they were conceived on other forums/etc at the time? who knows! one member from MMOCF, DLite, was considered the 'expert' on Uber Noobs. they had the process down to an exact science, and had several perfect and near-perfect Uber Noobs. from what they described, the methods to skipping laff boosts was a lot of time and patience.
another interesting fact... you know Cashbot Ubers? well... i think that true Cashbot Ubers actually did exist. original Uber Noobs seemed to have been created when the community was waiting for CBHQ to come out. the update that prevented these Uber Noobs from being created came out slightly before CBHQ did. when CBHQ did come out, people who still had Uber Noobs could actually progress through DDL with their original laff intact, and fight the CFO. i found this record of toons ranging from 79 to as low as 59 laff defeating the CFO due to this. it's almost kind of bizarre, but perhaps this is where the modern acceptance/idea of Cash Ubers came from? don't think it needs to be said on the wiki page, but thought i'd offer it to you guys anyway.
but yeah, i'll go around and ask about Perfect 120s, and come back to you guys if i get any solid info.
quick update, i asked my friend who has a Perfect 120 and some others, and their input was this: they are not considered ubers, but are considered unconventional builds. however, unless there was enough non-uber toon builds to warrant an entire section, perfect 120s should be left out for the time being.